Episode 5 - Intersectionality and Working with Survivors of Color

Female Speaker: The subject matter of this podcast will address difficult topics. Multiple forms of violence and identity-based discrimination and harassment. We acknowledge that this content may be difficult and have listed specific content warnings in each episode description to help create a positive safe experience for all listeners.

In this country, 31 million crimes, 31 million crimes are reported every year. That is 1 every second. Out of that, every 24 minutes, there is a murder. Every 5 minutes, there is a rape. Every 2 to 5 minutes, there is a sexual assault. Every 9 seconds in this country, a woman is assaulted by someone who told her that he loved her, by someone who told her it was her fault, by someone who tries to tell the rest of us, it's none of our business. And I am proud to stand here today with each of you to call that perpetrator a liar. 

Maria McMullen: Welcome to the podcast on crimes against women. I'm Maria McMullen. The concept of intersectionality maintains a theoretical framework for understanding how aspects of a person's social and political identities might combine to create unique modes of discrimination for that person. This is but one high-level explanation of the term intersectionality, a concept introduced by Kimberle Crenshaw some 30 years ago. Since that time, new definitions and uses of the term intersectionality have surfaced and around a wider variety of marginalized groups in Crenshaw had initially intended. Today as we discuss sexual violence, intersectionality must be broached or we risk diminishing each woman's unique experience and make the conversation a homogenized version of all varieties of sexual violence happening to all people. Emerging programs in the research and treatment of sexual violence explore the unique needs of black women who reportedly have a higher incidence of sexual violence, coupled with lower rates of reporting those crimes. Their stories when shared offer a new understanding of the spectrum of violence and the obstacles facing black women. 

Our Guest, Gretta Gordy Gardner is the deputy director for Ujima, a project of the DC Coalition against domestic violence at the National Center on Violence Against Women in the Black Community. An attorney, Miss Gardner's career as a legal advisor for survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault and stalking was inspired by her early work as a prosecutor in the domestic violence unit of the Baltimore City State's Attorney's office. She has worked for over 2 decades to help shape guidelines, policies and procedures that jurisdictions can use to end intimate partner violence and develop best practices for prevention and intervention in legal systems, community-based programs and includes training education on implicit bias. Miss Gardner sits on the Board of Trustees for Garrison Forest School. She's licensed to practice law in DC, Maryland, Texas in the Supreme Court of the United States. She's a certified mediator and belongs to a multitude of local State national committees that address violence against women and their children. Gretta, welcome to the show. 

Gretta Gordy Gardner: Hi, thank you so much for the invitation. It's my pleasure to be here.

Maria: Tell us about the organization Ujima that you work with and who served by the project. 

Gretta: Sure, thank you. So, we are Ujima Incorporated. National Center on Violence Against Women in the Black Community. We were created and founded in 2015, by our executive director Karma Cottman and I was a co-founder. Then in 2016, we were awarded a grant from the US Department of Health and Human Services under the Family Violence Prevention and Services Act which funds most of the shelter service programs and technical assistance providers throughout the country to address domestic violence. And so, are predecessor was the Institute on Domestic Violence and
Advocate American Community which had the Grant from 1994 until 2016 when we took it over. And so, we serve basically the world as a resource center. Anyone can call us or go onto our website or get our fact sheets or etc. Our main constituency are those who are funded by the Family Violence Services and Prevention Act in which the administration of Children and Families is the one who oversees that Grant. And so, we're able to do webinars, we are able to do conferences, we're able to participate in policy discussions, we hold roundtables, regional meetings, and we're hoping to have Ujima chapters in major cities and counties throughout the country so that we can have people on the ground who are doing the work. So that if things come up or issues are trending, we're able to deal with them not only on a national scale but also as a local and state level as well. 

Maria: Oh wow, thank you. So to those points, can you offer us some historical context for helping black survivors of sexual violence and and talk about why that's important to specifically help the black community?

Gretta: Sure, well, I mean, I can say from a historical perspective, there's a couple of different layers and in a lot of our trainings, we talked about the historical context of oppression and the impact of slavery, and the validity of black women's pain has been denounced or denied, right? That for a long period of time that rape against the black woman was not even considered a crime because she was a property, right? And how that has reverberated throughout the course of time and adhering to certain stereotypes the black women whether its the mummy stereotype, where she is there to serve and to be jovial and to care take for our communities and for whomever she serving then who denies her own feelings. Then there's also the stereotype of sapphire who is just always angry, kind of like the black angry woman trope, of that cannot credible and always combative and provocative and always instigating. Then there's Jezebel, right? As far as being a seductress and you're not capable of being raped or being a victim of sexual assault because she's the one who's inciting or seducing men. So, we have this whole history in the United States of black women not being deemed as credible, as not being a whole person. 

I don't know if you're familiar with playing the dozens where it's a game where your mama jokes and actually, the origination of that was, slaves did not hold their value as individuals that they were sold by the Dozen. And so, if they had defects or deficits, that did not make them where they're being sold on their own, like, if they had bad teeth, or they're too fat, or they had this or that, that they were then sold by the Dozen. And so, we just continue to perpetuate these stereotypes about black women that have had really serious effects on not only how we respond, how we provide services, whose over-represented in systems based on stereotypes and biases and prejudices that continue to this day. So, I can give you an example. What we do know from the research and from having some longitudinal data now is that, oftentimes in Black survivors, if they do report, and if they do show up for services, oftentimes their safety is not the number one thing that is of concern to them and so it's really disconcerting to go and ask for help when you're being abused at home and you need help with your utilities or you just need help with your car or transportation to be able to get to work. You can handle the rest, right? Like, you're trying to manage the abuse but you need help with these other things. And to be told no, you have to call the police or no, you have to go to the courthouse and get a protection order or no, your children could be taken away from you if you don't do any one of those things. Without giving the adequate time and space and developing a rapport and trust with the survivor, maybe that's not her safest option in that moment and maybe she really just says need help with her utilities or being able to get to school or a safety plan. Something is [inaudible] to safety plan as opposed to pushing towards these protocols that we've put in place that we think are best for everyone but they aren't necessarily.  

Maria: Does trauma-informed have a different meaning for black women or survivors of color?

Gretta: Sure. So, it's a multi-layered right and multifaceted because not only are we trying to address the trauma at hand, so whether that's the domestic violence, sexual assault, stalking or [inaudible], the incident that is given rise to the response that's required. So whether that's from a community based program, law enforcement courts or what have you, is that we're really encouraging practitioners to look a little bit deeper into how or why that survivor is doing some help seeking and that their behaviors that you're observing may have some deeper meaning beyond the crisis at hand. So for example, if someone were to appear angry and combative, etc., that maybe it's not just because of the trauma at hand that perhaps, she's angry because she's not able to feed her kids, or perhaps she's angry because in the area that we live in, which is one of the most affluent black communities in the country, her stalker is compromising her security clearance and her job, and her economic viability is really on the line. And so, perhaps, she's frustrated and angry about that and not necessarily on the clerk that's trying to help process the paperwork for the protection order. And to really understand what does that mean in the context of the black experience in the United States, right? It is that help seeking is not a natural behavior and that it's very cultural to not want to air your dirty laundry in public. And so, seeking help from outside the family or outside the friendship circle or outside your faith community not only is not welcomed, really, it is not accepted, but it's also can be very quite dangerous. 

So, one of the things that we talked about is, when we talk about a trauma-informed responses for example, a police arrived at the scene because of a 911 call, that doesn't always mean that the victim called. Sometimes it's somebody else that called in the community or a neighbor or passerby, or what have you. So, if the police arrived and the victim is angry that the police are there, it's not necessarily because she wants the abuse to continue or she's okay with the abuse, but that could have some very real consequences. And quite often, we see an increase in mutual arrest, when it's a black female survivor as opposed to really figuring out what's going on. We're seeing more likely in the rest of the abuser and you know what the industrial prison complex has done to the black community. And so, this philosophical approach of collectivism of, I kind of analogize it to Captain Kirk the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. And so this cultural loyalty if the police arrest him and take him away, what does that do to our family structure? What does it do to the community structure? And perhaps, I should just be the community scapegoat to protect another black man from going to jail? So yes, there are many considerations to take in place as far as the decimation of how systemic and structural biases have contributed to breaking down our community and as devastating and horrible as domestic violence is, we just don't want to see more of our people be over-represented in systems that harm us. 

Maria: So that is a perfect segue into what I wanted to ask you about next, which is I want to talk about intersectionality. Which is in my mind, it is a pretty complex conversation but most specifically, what does intersectionality really mean when we're talking about sexual violence for black women and then, how can that be put into practice? 

Gretta: Sure. So intersectionality is really a philosophical theory that came about with Kimberle Crenshaw out of a paper she wrote from the University of Chicago Legal Forum. Demanding the intersection of race and sex, a black feminist critique of anti-discrimination doctrine feminist theory and anti-racist politics.

Maria: Yes, yes. 

Gretta: Right? I have to [inaudible] put it up there because when people actually want to read it, it's helpful to have it [inaudible] and it really talks about the experience of black women that you can't [inaudible] sound into [inaudible] actions, right? Like the black part of us and then the woman part of us. That really is the totality of who we are and our experiences that have to be addressed. So like a really good example I can give you and then I will relate it to how to respond to it in sexual assault. So example, when I was living in Texas and the democratic primaries between Obama and Hillary Clinton were happening and people would come up to me and ask me, "Oh, you must be really conflicted, like you don't know who you're going to vote for. Are you going to vote for Hillary Clinton? Or are you going to vote for Obama?" And I was like, "Oh, people see me singularly", right? So, the black part of me is kind of vote for Obama and the woman part of me must vote for Hillary Clinton and that people can't reconcile that I'm both, right? And that I actually have to do some critical thinking and looking at the issues and it's the same. So the way I say is, we have to take people as they are.
So, when we think about intersectionality, I'm actually more than a black woman, right? So, I am a mother, I am a lawyer, I am a daughter, I'm able-bodied. I am heterosexual. Like I'm all these things that provide me great privilege and also great disadvantages and so when I show up and if I'm looking for help, particularly in a setting where supposed to be responding to sexual assault and people just see my blackness then their biases had the potential for creeping in and how they're going to treat me, right? 

So we know, for example that black women are less often seen as trafficking victims and more often seen as purveyors of prostitution. And so, that impacts how they are treated not only by the medical community but also law enforcement. And so for example, I had a call in the middle of the night where the sexual assault forensic examiners would not give an exam to a prostituted woman because she said prostituted women can't be [inaudible]. And so, there were a lots of layers to that to that she was a woman of color, and she had some other things going on as well. So it really is to say that we cannot dissect people by their gender nor can we do by their race and so that we have to take them in their totality and respond to the totality of that and understand what is it like to be a black woman in America. And so when
that person is coming for help to take into consideration all of the multitude of things and oppression and factors that they've had to endure just merely to survive life. Not only the crisis at hand, but that when I show up, I might not be believed. When I show up, I might be followed because it is assumed that I would be a thief more so than a shopper. And that all those things, take a toll on you after a period of time. And so if I show up and if I say that I've been sexually assaulted, how do you treat me based on your unpacked biases and the work that you have or haven't done to give me the treatment and the respect that I need in order to move from surviving [inaudible] the assault to actually driving later in life. Because what we do know is the greatest condition of whether or not a survivor or a victim, however, they identify themselves will participate in the process whether that's towards healing and that's in the justice system or through a program assistance or counseling is how that first responder treats her. 

And so if the first responder treats are terribly or says something like "Well, how many baby daddies do you have? Or are you sure that you didn't say yes?" Or any attack on her credibility is going to have a great impact on not only how she goes forward in life in seeking help but in how she tells her narrative, right? And how she feels about "Well maybe I was wrong, maybe I did bring this on." It's really quite complicated in some ways and really quite simple and others, right? 

Maria: Are there training programs for law enforcement first responders, medical professional specifically on this issue for very particular community? So, I mean, is there something available for the black community, for the Latino community and others? 

Gretta: Yeah, so we are actually 1 of 4 culturally specific institute's that are funded by the US Department of Health and Human Services. So obviously, we addressed and I said, I am sexual assault community violence, structural violence and systemic violence for the black community, and that includes the black community broadly. We define the black community was within the African diaspora, so that also includes Afro-latin X, Afro-Caribbean, and African immigrants refugees and asylees. Our partners are Casa de Esperanza and they address all of those issues with regard to the Latin-X community and Asian Pacific Islander gender-based violence Institute, they address all of those issues and crime areas with regard to the Asian Pacific Islander. And so, we are all 3. The Racial Ethnic Resource Centers, and there's also an LGBTQ+ Institute as well that is not defined as racial and ethnic, but is defined as a culturally specific resource center as well. So, yes, and to your point, we have a contract with the International Association of Chiefs of Police where I and Tom Tremblay, a consultant of theirs created a curriculum with International Association of Chiefs of Police on how to respond to sexual assault in the black community. We piloted in July and we've done different versions and abbreviations of it. We whittled down to 3 day training to a 1 day training that we actually did for the Department of the Interior for all of their agencies as well that was very well attended. It's had a really tremendous response and it's [inaudible] really quite pleased.

Maria: Instead of training, you're going to bring to the conference on crimes against women someday?

Gretta: We would love to do that for anything for the conference on crimes against women. 

Maria: We would love to have you that sounds like an amazing program that would fit right into the conference. So we can talk about that later, of course. 

Gretta: Okay.

Maria: So let's talk about today. Let's focus on the present. Are you noticing an impact of COVID-19 on the black community specific to the issue of health or sexual violence? What's going on?

Gretta: Right. So yes, this is something we've been talking about all day,  every day for the past several [inaudible].

Maria: I'm not surprised. 

Gretta: Yes. So at Ujima, we are particularly challenged by is that we have known for a very long time that the black community experience is all these co-morbidities and underlying conditions and that there's a dearth of resources and a dearth of medical help around diabetes, high blood pressure, cholesterol, heart disease, etc., and kind of a general response has been medication and just kind of prophylactically dealing with it as opposed to getting to the root. So, we are obviously seeing more issues with COVID-19 with regard to deaths and symptoms, etc. The other issues that we're seeing with the quarantine because of that, is that people are having to stay in the homes with their abusers have a less of an opportunity to seek out resources, less of an opportunity to find safe haven with family and friends, etc. A lot of the co-opting together even if it's not your intimate partner, which has been a problem. But also, if there's a family abuse going on, where there's adults parents, elder abuse, or if there's children in a multiple children and child abuse, etc., and sexual assault has really been a problem. Our challenge has been traditionally, black survivors don't feel like brick-and-mortar shelters or community-based programs really are made for them. But they're really only made for white survivors, right? Or victims to receive genuine help. They aren't built for them, but they may not have the ability to bring your own food or they are maybe perfuse, or you may have to be co-housed with somebody or co-lived with someone who doesn't believe in your religious beliefs or isn't respectful of your religious beliefs. 

For example, if you're a Muslim and you should pray several times a day And, you know, there's still a tremendous bias around that in this country as far as Muslim-Americans. So we are saying that there aren't increased calls to hotlines or to police. They're pretty much staying the same. But what we are seeing is that there is more need for culture specific community-based programs to have their resources to be able to connect. So for example, lots of people in the black community don't have a device to use, right? Or
they might not have an access to the internet. We have found through our other technical assistance providers, even our employees don't have access to internet. We've had to figure out how to do that. In my county where I live is one of the wealthiest counties not only in the state of Maryland, but in the country where one-fifth of our community didn't have access to device or internet so they [inaudible] the schools had to buy 15,000 Chromebooks so that students can continue their education. 

Maria: There [inaudible] definitely an issue across school systems nationwide from what I've been reading about. I want to ask you though, specific to the point you were making, do you have any idea yet on what some strategies might be post COVID-19 or as we move through this pandemic and things are evolving every day. What strategies may become available for the black community to help support them even better?

Gretta: Right. So, I'm in phase 4, the stimulus package or what we're asking for is more money for culture specific programs to be able to do the outreach that they need to. In order to number 1, do safety planning, make sure people are okay, we're expecting the flood gates to open once the state's kind of [inaudible] some of the restrictions and hire reporting then. Making sure that we have adequate housing, making sure that we have adequate resources to help people with filing for unemployment, if that's even still available, making sure that kids have an adequate access to educational resources if parents are going to be able to work because a lot of members of the black community are essential employees, are doing gig economy, kind of work. What do they do with their children? Making sure that they have safe places to go etcetera, making sure that after this shutdown and the quarantine is lifted for those who want to be able to escape from their abuser have access to legal resources for protection orders, making sure that they have access to family law attorneys and Court processes in order 
to set up a custody and visitation or supervised visitation based on what may or may not have happened during COVID. 

Also, I'm on a couple of different committees and strategies around making sure that survivors of domestic violence, that their children are not over-represented in child welfare systems because they couldn't get away from abusers and that they are typically told we expose our children to domestic violence when we don't [inaudible]. So, the [inaudible] becomes on the survivor as opposed to the abuser. So there's a whole host of things that we're just trying to repair around reducing food and security, safety plans, reaching out, we're having a faith-based roundtable in July to make sure that faith leaders are prepared when churches open back up. And that basically, they know how to appropriately respond when survivors come and even ask for their help or spiritual guidance. 

Maria: Yeah, we'll look forward to hearing more about the outcomes of those strategies of things that you're working on. Those are fantastic. You mentioned children a lot. And I think that's a really important part of the story when we talk about domestic violence because we do talk to and about survivors, but often children are just as impacted if not more and kind of lifelong. So, let's just talk for a minute about child custody and co-parenting,  is that different in the black community than you find in other communities?

Gretta: I wouldn't say different. But I think we are cast in a different way. I think that's when stereotypes really go run away. As far as black fathers aren't involved, which is untrue on a couple of committees I've been on it's like, how do you define involved, right? So for a black father who may be underemployed or unemployed perhaps he is not spending $2,000 per month on child support, but he's giving what he can. So whether it's watching the child 3 days out of the week while the mom is at work or being engaged in some other way or bringing diapers or doing what he can, but that's still involved, right? I think that we have a tendency that there is some purpose and perpetuating this myth and this stereotype that black fathers are not involved. Co-parenting in the black community is really no different. I think where it becomes really complicated sometimes and again, where stereotypes coming is that when you have multiple fathers or multiple mothers of your children is like how do you create a cohesive parenting plan or scheduling to make sure that the children are provided for. That gets difficult for courts and I've seen reports have been really heavy-handed and perhaps judgmental on the faults of parents for not adhering to a majority heteronormative value system. One of the challenges that constantly places like I'm a parent, I have 2 wonderful children who are 10 and 13, hardest job I've ever had. I would rather take 5 bar exams in different states at the same time, right? 

Maria: Agree. Agree. I completely agree.

Gretta: Yeah, right. And still I think that we have this [inaudible] in the sky idea of what parenting should be and we put really difficult standards that are unattainable on people and punish those who can't meet them. One of the best books I've ever read was "Even June Cleaver Would Forget the Juice Box" and it was [inaudible] going about moms who overproduce, overcompensate, all these over things, but what was really telling was the actress who played June Cleaver said that she felt so conflicted every day because she was perpetuating a norm of what a mother should be in a way. But every single day she was leaving her children for 12 to 14 hours a day with a nanny. 

Maria: Yes.

Gretta: Right. So I think that for the black community, we have a myriad of mothering like anyone else like other communities as well. We can be tiger moms, we can be Bohemian moms or just like well, as long as everyone's mentally happy, it's okay. We don't have to get [inaudible]. We run the gamut, I mean, and again, that's our intersections. It not really depends on where you are, who you are, what family you were born into, what were your resources that were available to you and I think to a large extent, moms are just trying to do the best that they can.

Maria: Last question before we head into our kind of wrap up here, let's talk about cultural shift for a minute. In your opinion, is there a cultural shift that needs to happen within the black community in order for women to feel safe and reporting incidents of domestic violence, sexual violence and what might that should be?

Gretta: Sure. So I would change one word in your question.

Maria: Yeah. 

Gretta: And I wouldn't say that needs to be a cultural shift and reporting. There needs to be a cultural shift and talking about it with each other. Because reporting honestly, is still kind of dangerous, right? Because we don't know what the outcome is and all scenarios about reporting and that can range from it being handled appropriately to nothing happening because she's not believed, to being arrested herself or harmed or sent to jail, to cases being dismissed because she's being intimidated and doesn't show up to appear, to her being jailed for failing to appear, there are cases where the New Orleans prosecution office is being sued because they have arrested sexual assault victims for failing to appear when actually we know that that's a safety plan for many victims. I think that the more we talk about it amongst ourselves and kind of pierce that bale of being verboten to talk about and not casting dispersions on black men are no more likely to commit these acts of violence than other men, but we don't want to talk about it. It's still very hush-hush, right? Because they're already cast in a bad light. Why would we put more on them? But the more that we talk with each other about it, we can say, "Oh yeah, that happened to me. Oh yeah, that's happening to me now." as opposed to "That wouldn't happen to me, or it doesn't happen to me and I'm not going to talk about it.'

Maria: When you say, talk about it amongst ourselves or or each other, who are you referring to? Is it women or the entire community or just, I just want to understand that part. 

Gretta: I honestly think whoever you feel safe talking with, right? So within the community, if they're our friends, our allies outside of the black community that you feel safe talking with are valid. We are trying to dismantle the secrecy around it so that you can figure out like, what's your best strategy? Sometimes a lot of [inaudible] I still do a little bit of pro bono work. Sometimes just being able to talk about it with somebody is the only strategy you need. Just like, am I crazy because what I'm experiencing is this but he's telling me this, right? So breaking down that secrecy, that mystery, that feeling crazy, that gaslighting, unbundling it, unpacking it so that your now "Oh, what I'm experiencing is real." And then as you're moving through your victimhood and survivor hood and trying to move to a place of thriving, like knowing all of your options and all of your resources so that you can figure out and tailor make what's best for you. Because there is no cookie cutter approach. And I think so often because of the volume, because we have been so ardent in pushing for a response that we really aren't allowing victims to figure out what really is best for them in the moment and it's going to change, right? I mean, I've had people who were gangbusters about, "I want to prosecute" to "Now, I changed my mind", to "I think I just need to talk to a counselor" to "No, I really want a protection order", to then going back to " I guess, I really want to prosecute", right? I think that we need to stop being ashamed and I think we need to stop blaming ourselves for why I picked him. So therefore I must deserve it or I had a trial once where the victim's mother testified for the offender and in cross-examination I said, "Ma'am, I have to ask you the question that everyone wants to know. Why would you testify for someone who beat your daughter?" and her response was, "It's better to have a man that beat you than no man at all." And I think that it's some of those teachings, those old-school teachings. And kind of this attachment we have to being partnered and couple that has this value because there's such a dearth of it that we're told in our black community that black women are not attractive, that we're not worthy, that we don't hold value without a man, and that if we try to get that brass ring of the American dream, which I don't even know what that is anymore. But you know, the marriage picket fence for the house that you point [inaudible] kids and their dog, that if you don't have that or that if it's not even attainable that you're not valued or that you have no place at the table. And so I think many women, we make shortcuts and we ignore the red flags because we've been taught the brass ring either might be worth it, or we can fix it, that we can manage it or it won't be us because we're not talking about it. 

Maria: So, we're kind of coming full circle here. We started off talking about Kimberle Crenshaw and intersectionality. So I want to ask you a question,  do you think that we as women, can come to see each other just as women, even if it's just on this issue and not separating out the things that you mentioned people would ask you during when Obama faced Hillary Clinton? Do you think we can get to that point?

Gretta: I think it's both end [inaudible]. I think we have to see each other as women, but then I think we also have to look at and uplift our differences as well and how that really impacts our life experiences. There are commonalities that you and I will share as women, as we move to this world and try to do good. And then there will be access to opportunities and also barriers that we experience because you're white woman and I'm a black woman. That doesn't mean that we can't collaborate, that doesn't mean that we can't figure it out together and find strategies to help both communities and women in general. But I think that we've been taught for so long that it's an either/or. One of the things I found interesting, there's this book of "All the Single Ladies" book and it talks about how women are most powerful when they galvanized together. Right? 

Maria: Yeah. Yeah. 

Gretta: And that there was a time in our history before the Great Depression, where single women who graduated college had nowhere to go if they weren't married. They could go home but if they didn't want to go home, where did they go? So they created boarding houses. And so when women were living together in these boarding houses, that they realized that there was a lot of power and that's kind of where the suffragette movement was created and  [inaudible] woman's right with it.  And it became so powerful that rumors began that women who lived in those boarding houses were lesbians and so they didn't want to be associated with being lesbians so the boarding house will start to break up, right? 

Maria: This just makes me laugh, okay.

Gretta: Right. So I think the same is true for women of color and white women is that we've been told so long that we need to ignore our differences and just come together as women and that has some benefits and has some disadvantages. And that when we can respect both that that's where we really come to really great problem-solving judges and techniques. 

Maria: I think that's a really great answer. Because what you just said about ignoring differences, we don't even need to ignore them, right? As long as it can be both end, as long as we can have a conversation and lift each other up as women, I think we can set a precedent for the future and for the next generation of women which is what I really hope comes out of a lot of the work that we're doing at the conference and as well with you that you're doing and others. I have a couple more lightning round questions for you. Are you ready? 

Gretta: Sure.

Maria: Okay, here we go. What word do you wish people would stop using?

Gretta: Strong.

Maria: Really? 

Gretta: We're not allowed to say it in our office. We say black women are resilient. 

Maria: That's a fantastic word. I love that word. What inspires you?

Gretta: My children. I know that's a cliché answer my kids. My children.

Maria: It's a beautiful answer. 

Gretta: I didn't think I could be a mother. I have some health issues and I had 2 amazing kids that have pretty much saved my life and they hold me accountable.

Maria: Yes, they do. They do. It gave me the chills. Would you say that your work is intense and how do you combat burnout?

Gretta: It is. Yes, it is very intense. It's on [inaudible] 10 always and I am not very good about burnout even though I talk about self-care quite often. I guess, my best answer is my girlfriends. Like, my girlfriends are everything, just being able to dance and talk and laugh and we have dark humor, which probably if it's ever recorded, it's like that would be bad. But yeah my friends. My girlfriends. Yeah, they helped me when I'm sad, when I can't figure stuff out, when I'm frustrated just just being in the trenches with me. 

Maria: It sounds like you're already living the women lifting up women? 

Gretta: Yeah, I am. I am.

Maria: Yeah, you're an inspiration. Gretta, thank you so much for talking with me today. I really enjoyed it. 

Gretta: Thank you. I did as well. I'll see you soon hopefully for real.

Maria: I will see you in Dallas next year at the conference for sure. 

Gretta: [inaudible].

Maria: There we go. 

There are poignant lessons to be learned in our work with women who survived sexual violence. Perhaps not the least of which is developing environments where black women feel safe to report their experiences and where services are available to meet their needs. Consider this thought from  Jazelle Hunt's Field lessons from reporting on black women survivors of sexual violence as the author tells us of her experience just trying to learn about sexual violence in the black community. She writes, "While sexual violence is universal, there are countless filters through which it is processed. Many cultural considerations can hinder healing for black women survivors, the burdensome expectation of strong black womanhood, the power of the black church, the desire to shield black men and the lack of self-care examples are all real dynamics black women survivors endure." To learn more about this topic and other issues impacting crimes against women, visit conferencecaw.org and find us on social media at National CCAW. Thanks so much for listening until next time, stay safe.

Female Speaker: Interested in learning more about the topics you've heard on this podcast? Listeners of the podcast on crimes against women can
receive $25 off of registration to the 34 part web series beginning on June 2nd. Visit www.conferencecaw.org/register and enter podcast 25, that's podcast 25 at checkout.

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